a helpful guide (we hope) to navigating the waters.
Constructive criticism is welcome by most writers but wording can make a difference. Expression of strong opinion and even passion about the characters and stories are also welcome but our terms of service clearly state that flaming is not permitted.
This can lead to questions about just what constitutes constructive criticism. This is a good rule of thumb about staying in bounds when giving feedback to authors here.
Description of Constructive criticism: containing helpful and specific suggestions for positive change, constructive criticism is highly focused on a particular issue or set of issues, as opposed to providing general feedback on the item or organization as a whole.
The difference between constructive criticism and destructive criticism is the way in which comments are delivered. Although both forms are challenging your ideas, character or ability, when someone is giving destructive criticism it can hurt your pride and have negative effects on your self-esteem and confidence.
Saying, "This sucks" or "Stupid ass story" or "This is terrible" or "This is bull" and the like is not constructive. Even worse are phrases that attack the writer not just the story. Whereas some of the examples might be on the border and be a cause for concern, depending on the rest of the feedback they might skirt the actual violation. These sorts of feedback almost always are hurtful to the writer though and are never constructive. While they may not result in an official warning as being a flame they really do not have a place here.
No one has to rain praise on any story or be nothing but a cheerleader. No one is being asked to hold their opinions to themselves but flames and other violation of TOS are being dealt with when reported and warnings issued when it is determined to have crossed that line. Nonetheless, those comments that come up to but don't cross the line need to be avoided as well. You don't have to like everything about a story or heap praise on the writer BUT there is no need to choose words in expressing those views that go right up to the border of a flame either.
If you have lengthy constructive criticism you might want to contact the writer in private with the offer to help polish the story.
It is not unreasonable to ask people to be polite even in criticism. Nor is it too much to ask that criticism be contained to the actual constructive variety.
We want everyone to be passionate, to have and express opinions BUT we demand it be done in non-hurtful ways. Playing nice is something most of us have been taught as a positive social behavior early on and most of us really want in our playgrounds.
So...Is what you are saying something that would help you write a better story if you were the author? Would it encourage you to pursue your craft? (or) Is it something that would make you want to never write another word or crawl into a hole? It really is that easy.
So remember:
--pfeifferpack on August 13, 2018 03:46pm 24 Comments
I especially appreciate the helpful graphic! 
Thank you for this post!
Thanks for the clarification Kathleen. I know it can be frustrating when you're invested in a story and it doesn't go the way you'd like, but I agree, being kind and polite in your response is always the way to go, rather than risk upsetting someone who has worked really hard on that fic for free. 
Glad this helped show the difference. We really, REALLY, don't want to become word or thought police. Still we don't want to ever be a place where any writer at any stage of their development will have their spirits or desire to write crushed.
I've had my fair share of flames and borderline flames and know how it feels. I think everyone has. It is counter-productive and not necessary. It's not too hard to read what you are saying in a comment before hitting the submit button.
We DO investigate and deal with TOS violations but sometimes people don't understand the meaning of constructive criticism or criticism itself. Literary criticism isn't finding fault. Leaving a comment does not mean you have to have something negative to point out LOL (yes, I've had a review or two like that where they basically say they have nothing negative to say LOL).
I hoped this would help a reviewer know what is helpful to the writers and what is not and what is a violation for that matter.
Thanks for the support.
Kathleen
Yeah, the distinction between constructive criticism and flaming is super important. I was certainly aware of the basic distinction, but I thought your breakdown was very well put.
I really liked the point about sending someone a message or something if you had a lot of constructive criticism-y thoughts. And it's probably a good idea to ask if they want that kind of feedback before laying it on them!
Leaving well meaning but overly exhaustive constructive criticism in reviews was definitely a mistake I made once or twice when I was new to fandom. Once it was so bad that another commentor felt the need to jump in and defend the author from my perceived attack! Needless to say, I felt pretty terrible and I wound up sending the author a message apologizing.
Another rule of thumb I try to always follow even when giving constructive feedback is to never be entirely negative. It's not too hard to find at least one thing that worked well in any given story and if you can sandwich critiques with complements your review is unlikely to come off flame-y.
A final thing I think can be important to remember is that often something that rubs you the wrong way in a story might be another reader's favorite part. I think it's OK to say if something bugged you and why, but it doesn't hurt to be clear that this is just your subjective opinion.
Thanks Kathleen for the post!
Thanks for the article, Kathleen! Awesome points!
I think it's also helpful to remember that writers are people too! Online, it's sometimes hard to remember that. When you say something hurtful, you are hurting another human being. Someone who has feelings. Someone who has spent a lot of time writing and polishing their ideas into a story that hopefully people will enjoy. FOR. FREE. We aren't Stephen King here. We're just fans who like to bring ideas to 'life', and hopefully entertain other fans.
Not all stories are for all people. If you don't like it, just stop reading. That's cool. There's no need to get rude about it. If you wouldn't say it to someone standing right in front of you, then don't say it to someone online, cos, guess what? We are standing right in front of you.
All good points. Personally, I just stop reading if something isn't to my taste - whether it's because I don't think it's well written, or just because the theme is not something that appeals to me. (More often than not, FYI) Or some other reason somewhere in between those two things. TBH, I think very few people writing ff are looking for constructive criticism (or any kind of criticism). If you want to leave it, I have two suggestions: one is to make it a private message, not a public comment; and the second is to use the kiss-slap-kiss formula. If you can't think of two "kisses" (positive things) then why are you even reading it?
If you really like a story, but it has a flaw, I think you could say so. But say it politely and privately. And if you think the story needs some polish, make that offer. Good betas are hard to come by, so to complain to someone that they didn't use one will carry more weight if you are offering to help.
It's easy to stop reading if you aren't enjoying a story. There's no reason, IMHO, to point out that you don't like it. Just tiptoe away...
I suck at leaving reviews. My idea of high praise is "Well done!" LOL I just don't have Kathleen's knack of singling out specific things to praise. On the other hand, I don't leave a lot of reviews (boy, do I love AO3 and its kudos), so if you got one from me....
FF.net is a whole other world - I swear some people there think they are obligated to point out flaws. LOL
Thanks for the helpful graphic!
I might sin by leaving too much concrit too publicly, but I dearly hope I manage to make sure it's con. :) Sometimes, that's not enough, though, as Slaymesoftly and thewiggins said. Tbh, depending on my mood, linoleum can make me want to crawl into a hole and never write again. :D So I guess I'm saying I want to give a little more thought to whether an author is looking for crit at all.
*I do want to make clear that, personally, I AM looking for concrit whenever I post. Such moods as I said are fleeting; the wish to learn isn't. Everyone else isn't me, though, and reviewers would be right not to make that assumption -- which is why I've taken to adding an author's note that explains how I feel about concrit.
I've yet to find a good way to offer helpful criticism both on visual or writing. The writing I don't feel I have any right to be critical as I can't write at all. I have great admiration for anyone who takes up writing - quality at any level is beyond anything I could possibly do - with visuals I at least feel that I can give some critical perspectives.
Never any good reason for posting "this sucks" as critic or feed back comments - you don't like what you are reading simple enough to stop reading.
I'd like to add that I think the word "review" gets us in trouble. When a work of art of any sort (book, painting, play, movie, etc) is "reviewed" in public, the reviewer expresses his/her opinion (good or bad) of the piece and provides details to back it up. So, it may be a rave, in which the reviewer has nothing but praise for everything in the piece, or it may be a pan in which they dislike everything and everybody in it. Or, most likely, a combination of the two in which they talk about what they liked, what was good about it, what was less good, and whether, in their opinion, it is overall worth spending money to see, read, hear, or whatever. IN THEIR OPINION A review is by definition an opinion piece, although done by someone with some level of knowledge and/or expertise in the genre and backed up with specific examples.
So, when we ask for or talk about "reviews" on stories, there is room for a reader to make an assumption that it should be a complete review of everything, good and bad, about the story. Obviously, most people aren't going to do that, but some will. I prefer the idea of leaving a "comment" as opposed to a "review" for that very reason. It isn't asking you to critique the story, just to let the author know you liked it. If you want to offer some constructive criticism to go with your short comment, that belongs in a private message. Does that makes sense?
If you hate something, all you have to do is click away. Unless you've been asked specifically to read something and evaluate it. Then the author needs to be prepared to hear what you have to say....
@slayme: I love your suggestion. I've always preferred to think of our reviews here as "comments", since reviews has the exact connotation you describe.
Mods: is this a site terminology that could easily be changed? Changing "review:" to "comment:" and the note beneath the comment box from "*Note: You may submit a review, an opinion, or both.*" to "Note: You may submit a comment, a like, or both." ? etc etc (also, I think changing that note might clear up some confusion about the like button)
I think on my reviews mostly as comments. That has never stopped me from saying when I don't like a thing though. It does seem rather meaningless to have a comment field if you can only say good things. I don't say bad things that offten and I always try to point out more good things I like. If I totally hated a story I would stop reading, but I don't have to like everything to enjoy a story, but only saying good things seems sort of dishonest to me.
Magnus, you do a great balance of positive and what you don’t like, and I appreciate the honesty about what you think and feel.
Seconding Sandy. Magnus, you do a great job of expressing your thoughts about liking or not liking something without coming across as inflammatory. I think there's an important distinction to be made here:
The idea of criticism immediately sets up a binary situation: "you did this wrong. There's a right/better way to do this", whereas the idea of preference just says "not my cup of tea". And I think - when well-balanced - there's not a single thing wrong with honestly stating preference. It's part of the beauty of having something distributed to a community - there will be a lot of POV's. And as long as they all treat the writer and community with dignity, those POVs are all equally valid and important.
OffYourBird why don't you submit that change request to the suggestion box so that we can explore if it is possible to do.
Magnus we aren't asking people to only gush with praise or "say positive things" just that when wording the negative's we be polite. You always manage that. No one thinks you are flaming them or their story. No one feels like they might as well hand up their keyboard because they can't write for crap after a comment from you BUT every writer knows when you aren't happy about a story choice or direction either (souled Spike being disliked is your middle name LOL). There is a difference. We aren't wanting people to withhold their opinions just thinking about how they word the ones that might discourage or hurt a writer.
I didn't really think it was about stopping all negative comments, but I felt that the discussion started to lean a little bit in that direction and I thought that I should "push back a bit, if that make sense". It's a lot easier to stop something from falling if it isn't leaning too much. We all know where good intentions can lead😀 Sometimes I do take on the role as "The devil's advocate", it has probably been noticed in the shoutbox sometimes😀
I wish FF.net had a guideline to concrit like this, that site borders on bully sometimes with its 'reviews.' And half the time it's not even people who've reviewed the story, it's member who've banded together, seen it, read it, decided they don't like it for some reason (usually due to smut honestly) and then chain reported it to get it removed. So many authors have left fanfiction because of the flaming campaigns that go on.
Part of this reason I upload stories on EF exclusively is because of sheer amount of flames I received because readers didn't agree with the character development, the story direction etc. I had one review that opened with 'You don't need praise, you need harsh criticism.' What even is that? In my time here I've only really received one flame review, but it wasn't really a review just someone telling me they refused to read anymore of Betrayed, Forgotten, Abandoned when I didn't kill Angel at a point in the story. To which point I agree with the whole idea of just tiptoeing away if you don't like it. No need to really say anything.
I like reviewers who say 'I don't agree with this point, but I like how you've done this.' Devil's advocate as you say. I'd rather have that as a writer than out and out praise all the time, it helps us grow.
Thanks for this guide, I think it's really helpful.
Leaving a constructive criticism is not simple, and sometimes it took years to learn how to do it. I mean, it's easy when you like all of a story, you love the plot, the author's ideas, and you leave a review full of love. But when you don't like something, or you think the author is making some mistakes, or he can do better... well... that's the difficult part.
Should I let him know? Does it help him to receive my criticism? We are all different people. Someone loves when you tell him what you don't like, someone doesn't give a damn because he writes for fun and for free, someone becomes angry and tells you-you have to write only positive comments or don't give them at all. Someone tells you-you have to write negative comments in private message only. But... shouldn't reviews be public? If a reader is new to the fan-fiction world, he can be really confused about how to do and when to do a review.
Personally, I'm a direct person and I like suggestions because I think we can always do better. I listen to all criticism and then decide if I want to consider it or not. I'm used to being criticized, at work, at home, and I got tough about that. So I tended to say what I was exactly thinking, and sometimes I couldn't be specific about that because I just knew there were things that rubbed me in the wrong way, but I couldn't pinpoint exactly or technically what they were, because I wasn't an experienced writer and reader. Or I tended to say how I would have done that thing or the other.
I got way better in leaving reviews with time and with suggestions like these, given from kind and patient people. So thanks again for this guide. I'm really sorry I hurt someone sometimes, and would want them to understand I didn't hurt them on purpose. I'm not a mean person. I just didn't fully understand how to do a constructive review.
I also didn't understand that some authors don't like criticism. I thought "they make their stories public, so they are ready to be criticized. They do it because they want to get better at writing, they need the criticism.". But later I understood there are simply thousands of amazing authors that want to share their works and their love for writing and for this show with people. They simply want to make their stories public because they want to let people dream and have fun and feel emotions with their stories.
I think this is really important to understand. They do it for free and for fun and don't want necessarily to get criticized to get better on writing or doing IC, unless they ask it specifically.
I hope this guide can help confused reviewers as I was.
Thanks to all the amazing authors out there. If you feel wounded by a review, just don't take it into consideration, don't let it ruin your passion for writing and sharing your works with people. But sometimes, reviewers don't want to hurt you. They just don't know how to do a constructive review. In this cases, it helps to write in private and kindly demand an explanation. You can clear up and understand things better.
@ Loup FF.net does seem to have a lot of people who think their role is to tell you what they don't like. I'm kind of appalled that they would gang up on someone, though. However, given the site rules, complaints that a story has exceeded the allowed level of sexual material seems to me to be legit. I'm not a fan of their rule about NC17 stuff, but it is their rule. I wouldn't take it to heart if they took down one of my stories for being too explicit. They are pretty upfront about that in their rules section. I've probably come closer to getting something I'd call a "flame" there than anywhere else, but I read it and then agree or disagree, depending. I have yet to have one ruin my day, although I think I have had one or two that made good points for me to take into consideration in the future. Usually not, though. Sometimes it's just bitching and I treat it accordingly.
@kasumi-chan - It's a fact, while most of us would like to know if we've made a big, fixable, technical mistake (missing word, canon error, name confusion, etc) "Reviews" that call out the artistry can be harder to accept. And, given how subjective many things can be - ("my" Spike may not sound or act like "your" Spike, but both may appeal to readers) it can be very difficult to comment upon things like plot and characterization in an objective way, because it will be your opinion rather than a visible, fixable, mistake to be corrected. It might be constructive criticism, if the plot is full of holes, or the characters bear no resemblance to the actual characters - but if that's the case, why bother to read it?
I'm torn as to whether I think it would kinder (in the long run) to leave a specific reason for not reading "I'm sorry, the story is interesting, but your Buffy is so OOC I just can't get into it. I don't believe she is really....." (insert your specific complaint about the way she's being written). Or, if I think just tiptoeing away without comment (certainly without any false "loved it") in hopes that the lack of positive reviews might spur the author to ask for help or advice is the better choice. Depends upon how tactful you can be.
@slaymesoftly I can respect the FF.net NC-17 rule, as you said it’s their rule. The thing is they actually do very little to enforce it. I understand it’s difficult to enforce it on such a large site, but it really opens authors up to the people/bullies who take issue with story’s content. Plus I also feel if the aithor puts up approiate warnings it’s fine, as the readers can then choose not to read.
I think the problem is the people who donget those stories removed is more down to them not liking the story in general rather than the smut, regardless of amount of or how explicit the smut. I was never reported but I know I had a couple of stories there that certainly could/should have been due to the content.
@kasumi-chan I agree that when reviewing a story you should just say what you feel, as it is your opinion. I can appreciate blunt honesty, and enjoy criticism as it helps me grow as a writer. And as you say, we’ve made our writing public for reading and critiquing I just take issue with when it’s ‘destructive’ rather than ‘constructive.’ But then, it’s up to the individual on how they take criticism.
Ah, Loup Noir, I thought you were saying that had happened to you. I guess that's the risk we take by posting higher rated stories there - that someone who hates the story (or hates us) can find a way to get it deleted for exceeding the rating allowed. Pretty crappy behavior, but FF.net isn't exactly famous for the classiness of some of its fans. I think it's where most plagiarized stories turn up also, if I remember correctly from back when it was a big problem.
One way to approach comments and critics is to engage the writer - ASK about why they have chosen their particular treatment of characters. First however, the reader should seriously want to either help writer develop their skills or be genuinely interested in the work. The degree of effects the story has for the reader should be a guide - how engaged or compelling do you find the work. If a reader just flat out dislikes the work or how a particular character is depicted due to "personal taste" it's one thing. If a reader finds story elements that are interesting or "out of their personal taste range" then the Critic - which BTW includes both the reader and the writer perspectives I think would benefit from a discussion of the specific elements.
Your Story Sucks or "get real" This Character is Totally Wrong - this critic is not useful and really only reflects back on the person who did the critical comment.
Thank you for this. Nasty, hurtful comments just discourage writers, and not everyone can stomach them.